Subject: Fwd: Mail System Error - Returned Mail
From: Karen Estes (estesk@email.spjc.cc.fl.us)
Date: Wed May 17 2000 - 10:15:28 EDT
Hi All, I tried to send this to Rich, but the transmission failed, so I am
posting it to the whole group.
Karen
>The following recipients did not receive your message:
>
> <rvanamer@orion.cc.pcc.edu>
>
>To: Rich VanAmerongen <rvanamer@orion.cc.pcc.edu>
>From: "Karen Estes" <estesk@email.spjc.cc.fl.us>
>Subject: Re: Does this "formula" work?
>
>Hi Rich and all,
>
>I wanted to present another view of distance learning. My comments are
>interspersed after Rich's.
>
>At 12:17 PM 5/2/00 , you wrote:
>>Wayne,
>>
>>I am one of those “Distance Education(DL)” math types who has a variety of
>>delivery format experiences mainly due to administrative imposed delivery
>>software changes(“FirstClass - “Modem” system in 1995, now 1999-2000 on
>>WebCt - a messy subset of wordsmiths lovely prose). I only deliver two
>>transfer college courses in Statistics (200 level).
>
>I too am offering a distance learning class with a "push" from
>administration. I signed on to do the class because I wanted the content
>to be equivalent to the material for the "traditional" lecture class.
>Also, I use the ActivStats CD and DataDesk for data analysis. These
>materials seemed to lend themselves to distance learning. We use WebCT, a
>pretty nifty integrated package for delivering a course online. Although
>WebCT is not perfect, they are making improvements all the time and are
>very good at responding to email help requests.
>
>>I must say I am NOT the most experience software mathematical faculty. I
>>am a former industry type and more willing to “risk” failure it seems.
>>Most Mathematics faculty turn their collective eye away and ignore these
>>efforts, period.
>
>I also am willing to "risk" failure. In addition to working on the online
>class, I am using Interactive Math to present Elementary Algebra. This was
>the pilot class this term. Although the success rate of the students was
>far less in this pilot than the traditional, we are repeating the class in
>the fall. We think that we will be better teachers with the materials.
>Teaching with technology is not the "same old same old." The same is true
>for my online class, I find that I need to teach differently to reach those
>students. Some of that is a need for more personal contact--email,
>phone--since we do not meet face-to-face.
>
>>It has not been easy or smooth going. I have avoided
>>evaluating the overall success as I believe these are primarily “pilot”
>>efforts on my part with minimal support (two single course release times to
>
>>develop each course) or intervention by administration. It is both a
>>blessing and a difficulty to be all in one for these students
>>(registration, software guru and instructor).
>
>This is my second year of teaching online. I have kept detailed records
>for my online stats compared to the traditional. In general, the
>withdrawal and failure rate are MUCH higher. Often it seems that my time
>input is larger. Considering those outcomes, the "bang for the buck" seems
>low and is very discouraging to me. However, in general, I think the
>success rate for all DL courses is lower. (Note: Success for me is
>measured against ALL students on the permanent roster, including those who
>withdraw. In Florida, a withdrawal after the drop-add week counts as an
>attempt. On the third attempt students pay the full cost of instruction,
>equivalent to out-of-state tuition.) When we compare community college
>students (a population much different from university undergraduate
>students or graduate students), perhaps we should expect the low return.
>But I am not sure we should accept it. If our students are going to be
>distance students, then perhaps we need to help them learn the requisite
>skills for success. These are not necessarily the skills they learned in
>highschool or in attending other on-campus classes.
>
>Karen
>
>>
>>Rich VanAmerongen
>>Mathematics Instructor
>>Portland Community College
>>Portland, Oregon 97219
>>=====================================
>>At 10:47 AM 4/29/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Bret,
>>>
>>>The set of schools who set high standards first and then devote their
>>>efforts to increasing the success rate is NOT empty. I suspect that most
>>>efforts that fit this mold come from teachers and are implemented over the
>>>dead bodies of administrators but that may be a predjudice of mine. An
>>>example occurs to me that arouses my curiosity. How many teachers are
>>>implementing distance education courses because their administrations are
>>>insisting on it and how many are implementing it on their own to serve
>>>students? I'd be willing to bet that the former distance ed courses are
>>>much more expensive, have lower standards (if any), and are less successful
>>>that the teacher instigated ones even though they have to trick budget
>>>people to get money for theirs. Maybe some folks will write in and let me
>>>know how wrong I am.
>>>
>>>wayne
>>>
>>>At 06:18 PM 4/28/00 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>I'm just philosophizing here.
>>>>
>>>>Several years ago I heard a quote from some "business guru." Sorry, I
>don't
>>>>remember who. He said in oder for a business to succeed the basic
>principle
>>>>was simple: Quality, price, service; choose any two.
>>>>
>>>>Well, is the following principle true in education (especially for an
>>>>open-door institution): Standards, effort, success rate; choose any two.
>>>>
>
>>>>My point is, it is easy to get high success rates if you have either high
>>>>effort from students or low standards from the institution. But, do many
>>>>schools try and figure out how to have high standards and high success
>rates
>>>>while settling for low effort?
>>>>
>>>>Just curious.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Bret Taylor Lake-Sumter Community College Leesburg, FL John 3:30
>>>>
>>>>It matters not the subject taught, nor all the books on all the shelves.
>>>>What matters more, yes, most of all, is what the teachers are themselves.
>>>> John Wooden, UCLA
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Wayne F. Mackey
>>>Director, MRTC
>>>University of Arkansas
>>>ScEn #301
>>>Fayetteville, AR 72701
>>>wmackey@comp.uark.edu
>>>(501) 582-3764
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>Karen A. Estes, Ph.D
>St. Petersburg Junior College
>Tarpon Springs Center
>600 Klosterman Road
>Palm Harbor, FL 34683
>
>Office: (727) 712-5723
>Fax: (727) 7125861
>email: estesk@mail.spjc.cc.fl.us
Karen A. Estes, Ph.D
St. Petersburg Junior College
Tarpon Springs Center
600 Klosterman Road
Palm Harbor, FL 34683
Office: (727) 712-5723
Fax: (727) 7125861
email: estesk@mail.spjc.cc.fl.us
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